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[RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

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frozenleaf

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Post Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:57 pm

[RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

So I heard for a very long time that if you want to be anti-meta, you go TR. So because I failed absolutely at using Standard Things, I decided I wanted to be anti-meta. Following this logic, I then decided that hey, Trick Room is awesome. And having gotten my ass kicked by Max's Marowak before, I decided, why the hell not.

And then I realized that under Gravity, nothing except grass types resist Ground attacks.

Unfortunately, the team is having trouble functioning, but I have no idea why. I mean, there's almost oh so much I can excuse with 'bad playing on my part', and I figure that I need to find a way to optimize the team so that 'bad playing' or 'hax' doesn't screw it over utterly. Thus, I turn to you, forums!

So, the team:

Breakdown:


Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry, Levitate
Sassy
252 HP/ 28 SP. ATK/ 228 SP.DEF (0 SPD IV)

Trick Room
Gravity
Helping Hand
Psyshock

Cress has such four-moveslot syndrome that I'm not sure whether I need everything or not, because everything is so brilliant (seriously, I want to run Skill Swap so that my Heatran can start walling dragons that aren't called Salamence). Trick Room is obvious, Gravity is to help Marowak start pulverizing things, Helping Hand is so that Crawdaunt's LO Crunch nets KOs on opposing Cressies/ Heatran's Dragon Pulse deals 70% to Hydreigons, and Psyshock is so that I don't get so taunt bait. Admittedly, as far as fighting opposing Tyranitars go, this is a very bad set, since I have lost a couple of battles at least because of the last two pokes on the field being Tyranitar and Cresselia. It also takes a lot of damage considering everything targets it as it is my only Trick Roomer, and Taunt gets thrown in its general direction a lot when Amoonguss isn't able to save it. I kinda want to run Safeguard/Ice Beam/Skill Swap on it, but I'm not exactly sure whether it's worth it and what I should drop, and I'm wondering whether I should run Sitrus or Mental Herb/Lefties/Chesto-Rest...



Amoonguss @ Mental Herb, Regenerator
Sassy
252 HP/ 252 SP.DEF (0 SPD IV)

Spore
Rage Powder
Protect
Giga Drain

Amoonguss is just Amoonguss. It sits there and tanks hits while Sporing the shit out of things, although I cry whenever I fight a Crobat/Tornadus. Max Sp. Def EVs help it tank special attacks like a pro, since most of the attacks targeting Amoonguss are special anyways other than Acrobatics TwT Other than that, it's your typical support Amoonguss, with Mental Herb so that at least I can get one turn of Spore off if some Thundurus/Sableye is insistent on taunting me or something. Regenerator is because the last thing I need is for some Hitmontop to fake me out and only end up getting Paralyzed while avoiding my Spore. And also more health is good.


Marowak @ Thick Club (what else lol), Lightning Rod
Brave
252 HP/ 252 ATK (0 SPD IV)

Fire Punch
Protect
Bonemerang
Rock Slide

Seriously, with Gravity, this thing is scary. Fire Punch, unfortunately, does not KO Amoonguss without Helping Hand, but at least it deals with other Scizors and... idk, Whimsicott or something. Bonemerang is because I'd be stupid to run EQ with Gravity on the field and because I like breaking Heatran/Metagross subs. With the power doubled by Thick Club, I think I might actually stand a decent chance of KOing Garchomp and the likes, and with Gravity, it (obviously) nets KOs on Thundurus, Rotom-whatever, Tornadus, etc, etc. Any dragon switching in to take the hit will also be heavily damaged. Rock Slide is for the sheer lulz when I need to kill flying types when Gravity runs out or both things on the field or something.


Crawdaunt @ Life Orb, Adaptability
Brave
252 HP/ 252 ATK (0 SPD IV)

Waterfall
Crunch
Protect
Superpower

Because Crawdaunt appreciates Lightning Rod support and also because seriously this thing is scary when it's on the offensive. Dealing upwards of 70%~ to all variants of Cresselia if my calculations are correct, it has enough power to make even resisted attacks hurt like hell. Admittedly, despite this, I haven't actually seen it OHKO a Cress yet, so I have wondered whether I should sacrifice my overall power for a Dark Gem, but I'm not too sure. It also can't switch into attacks safely, taking something like 50% off Politoed's Hydro Pump (which makes me very very sad). That said, once it's in, at least something is going to die (unless I get crit or burnt or something dammit scald).


Heatran @ Lum Berry, Flash Fire
Quiet
252 HP/ 252 SP. ATK (0 SPD IV)

Heat Wave
Earth Power
Dragon Pulse
Protect

Lum Berry is because I freaking hate Amoonguss/overconfident Brelooms. Heat Wave is there because what's the point of running Heatran if you don't have Heat Wave, Earth Power is to kill opposing Chandelures/Heatrans, and Dragon Pulse is there because Yache Garchomp/Salamence makes me cry. (Also because we still can't find a seed for HP Ice lalalala~) Unfortunately, Heatran's usage in battle has been minimal, as it doesn't exactly synergize well with either Crawdaunt or Marowak. That said, it's here because I'm told it's not a good idea to run a team that doesn't have a steel that can tank dragon attacks all day, and because Heat Wave is awesome. It does, however, give my team some fighting poke problems as well as not exactly being able to do a lot to rain teams :(


Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem, Intimidate
Adamant
244 HP/252 ATK/12 SPD

Close Combat
Sucker Punch
Detect
Fake Out

Fake Out support because I'm old school and I think you can't live without at least one pokemon having fake out. Hitmontop is chosen over Hariyama/Medicham/other random TR fake outers simply because it's faster and can fake /them/ out, and it also packs enough of a punch with that Fighting Gem Close Combat. Sucker Punch is because you can't have too much priority (srsly, it's hilarious when a weakened Latios tries to attack when I'm within KO range), and detect is because I don't want my Hitmontop to keep dying like my VGC 12 'top. Speed EVs is to outspeed other Hitmontops so that I can at least fake them out and stuff, but stays within range of TR useability.



Problems:



Opposing Amoonguss is usually kinda bad especially when they start off as the lead. Since all my pokes are running 0 speed IVs except Top, this means that my amoonguss has to sponge the Spore if Cress wants to set TR up, or I can't set TR up because then they'll start sporing me bad. Currently, I hesitate to lead with Heatran because most of the starting leads would usually see a Latios or a fighting type or some ground type running around, so I don't really feel safe bringing Heatran in without TR up either.




Gastrodon also underspeeds my TR sweepers, most of which are weak to it (Crawdaunt does not count since it takes so much from special attacks anyways), so my only check to it would be Amoonguss since my Cress doesn't have Skill Swap. However, this also makes my playing very predictable when Gastrodon is on the opposing team, and I'm not sure how to deal with it safely.




Taunt users ruin my day, especially Prankster Taunt users. Admittedly, I can misdirect them with Amoonguss so that Cress can set up TR, but when they're paired up with a fake outer, life becomes extremely difficult (especially if said partner can KO all my sweepers). Sableye gets special mention because it likes to wisp everything on my team and taunt my amoonguss ;_;




I can handle fake out. Really. I just can't handle fake out +intimidate when most of my trick room sweepers are physical and my only special trick room sweeper is weak to fighting. Admittedly this is kinda bad since these two are sorta everywhere right now... and they can kinda tank all of my hits unless I double target them (why you fail so much Cress why).




Do you know how annoying it is to get T-waved by this thing, and then get fully paralyzed three turns in a row and not be able to set up Trick Room, only to have it reverse Trick Room in my face while I inevitably get Crunched by a Tyranitar?

... Yeah, let's not forget it can learn safeguard too, thereby rendering my Amoonguss completely useless.

God I hate Cresselias.


Conclusion: I think my team has issues in synergy, moveslots, and EV spreads, but I have no idea why or what to do. Also I may/may not know how to play a Trick Room team.

Help please ;_;
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Ervin88

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Post Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:39 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

Hi Wai Yin, I have some suggestions for Trick Room. I am thinking that maybe Zweilous might be a good choice. It's Outrage surpasses Haxorus because of Hustle, not only that, it has really low speed, so maybe a Brave Nature 0 Spe IVs? In the City Square Mall Competition, his Trick Room Zweilous totally destrolished my team.
Maybe Whimsicott too, it should run some Spe investment. So that it could use Taunt to shut down the other annoying Prankster users. Musharna has some decent bulk, so it could set up Trick Room in peace, if that Cress is gone.

These are what I know.

Oh yeah, for that 'he' I am talking about Matthew, ex Champion.
Last edited by Ervin88 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ervin88

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Post Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

Oh yeah, don't forget Theflamingspade's Trick Room Victini!
That's the guy with a Poker face that pisses me off so much.
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frozenleaf

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Post Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:24 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

Hi, Ervin. I understand that you're a singles battler, but please also understand that VGC 13 is a completely different tier than what you're used to in Smogon singles. I'm glad that you've shown such interest in doubles, and I don't mean to dissuade you from pursuing them (srsly they're more fun than singles, I find), and I appreciate the fact that you tried to help. That said, I don't think I can take any of your advice, even if Matthew's Zweilous has the most terrifying Outrage under the sun. The reasons being:

1) Zweilous is terrible. Not only is Outrage a random target attack that locks you into it for 2-3 turns, thereby making it vulnerable to priority attacks or switching steel types in the second turn (or heavens forbid, protect, and if you end up with a 2-turn outrage you end up confusing yourself), adding Zweilous in place of any one of my sweepers is letting go of something that is, a) in Crawdaunt's case, capable of OHKOing Cresselia with LO Crunch, b) in Marowak's case, a bloody hilarious ground type that can OHKO Rotom-W/Thundurus/Tornadus with Gravity up and take on Substitute users any old day as well as being able to tangle with Tyranitar, Metagross, and Heatran, and c) Heatran, who sponges up all my Latios Draco Meteors for me.

2) Trick Room sweepers generally have low speed so that they can gain the speed advantage and KO things once Trick Room is up. Victini is base 100 speed, speed tied with Jirachi, Volcarona, and basically outspeeds the majority of the metagame. Using Victini in Trick Room is tantamount to suicide as it means any ground/water/rock/dark/ghost type that's slower than you will now be happy to kill you since you reversed the speed tiers for them. In singles this might not be a problem since base 100 is considered 'slow' by some, but in doubles, where your speed tiers range from base speed 30 all the way to base speed 130? Yeah, it's not really so safe to go with a TRer that's sitting on the upper levels of the speed tiers.

3) Victini is banned in VGC 2013. So are Jirachi, Keldeo, Meloetta, Genesect, Celebi, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Mew, Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Kyogre, Groudon, Reshiram and Zekrom. And some other things that I may or may not have missed.

Thanks for the feedback though!
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Ervin88

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:09 am

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

Hello, Wai Yin. I looked at your EV spread, and I felt that the spreads were a little strange. They are

1: Your Cresselia runs 28 SpA EVs even though it's only attack is Psyshock. I think you should run 4 SpA and 24 Defense.

2: Your EV total is 504. The maximum legal amount is 510.

That's the only reason. Aggron is also a choice, because it is extremely slow and can hit really hard. You could run the Choice Banded set, and put 0 Spe IVs. And if you want to run some fast Pokemon, don't forget about Lagging Tail, Iron Ball or whatever.

And I'm sorry I couldn't help too much because I cannot find a website with VGC 2013 Pokemon.

Yes, Are you lazy to train 510 EVs.
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Ervin88

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:13 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

What about Normal Gem Explosion metagross
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frozenleaf

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

1) 28 Sp.ATK EVs guarantee a 2HKO on Hitmontops using either Psychic or Psyshock. This is a good thing because Hitmontops are freaking everywhere in VGC 13. Also 24 EVs are less helpful than 28 EVs in VGC 13 because it's flat battle, everyone is at lvl 50 and except for the first 4 EVs, stat points are increased every 8 EVs instead of every 4 or something like that. /shrug

2) Yes, I'm lazy and couldn't care about where that 4 EV points go since they don't exactly help me much. Just assume they're somewhere in defense or sp.def or something.

3) Lagging Tail makes you go last regardless of whether Trick Room is up or not, and Iron Ball is kinda a waste unless I run tyranitar fling or something like that, but tyranitar is already so slow that I don't see what's the point of iron balling it unless I really hate opposing weathers (doesn't matter, I'll just get sand veil haxed by opposing garchomps). Aggron is also frail like heck and has about the same coverage as Marowak, but lacks the power of THICK CLUB BONEMERANG WHEE and the useful ability of Lightningrod.

4) Have you checked Smogon? They have VGC 12 analysis on most of the viable pokemon's pages, and VGC 12=VGC 13 anyways.

5) also normal gem metagross explosion is... rather lacking in coverage at times, and if it explodes and the opponent predicts it and uses protect, it's... kinda stupid.
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Ervin88

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

Well, I used it in Pokemon Showdown and the people were like 'What the hell?'
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Ervin88

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:57 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

I used a Macho Brace Chandelure~
Good times.
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Ervin88

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: [RMT] VGC 13- Wai Yin's first attempt at Trick Room

And yes, Escavalier, you are so bulky. I used a Occa Berry Escavalier when I started playing Trick Room Doubles. I'm testing a Doubles team. Can you help me test it out someday?
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